Help me figure out a response

[eclectic_boy]

Someone knocked on our apartment door around 7:30 tonight, just as Noda and I got finished with dinner. It was four people who I recognized as living in our building. Three of them were between 7 and 11 years old, and the other was their mother. The older of the two boys was the spokesperson; after asking if I was good at understanding English (which made me smile inside -- I like our very diverse building with its immigrants from many nations) he offered a DVD ("free!") about the history of the Earth, with a lecture by Dr. Hovind on it. I asked if I should give it back to them after I had finished watching (suspecting what it might be about), and he was a bit thrown, but said no, I should pass it on to someone else. I took it and said thanks, and they went off to the next door

Noda and I skimmed through a lot of it. Yes, it's a creationist DVD, a lecture by someone who taught school science for 15 years until about 1990 and has since become a lecturer on creationism, dispelling myths about evolution. He's a pretty good public speaker, sometimes funny and sometimes friendly, but with a bit too much snake oil to him. He's a Young Earth Creationist who states that every word in the "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" is literally true, and has arguments for why evolution, the big bang, the Old Earth, and lots of other things, are not just untrue, but unscientific.

We didn't watch the entire thing, but a fair amount, and now I ask you for help:
How should we respond? I could of course ignore the incident and just use it as an anecdote, but they told me which apartment they're in, meaning I can go visit them, and I don't want them to hear Dr. Hovind's arguments without hearing the other side. But being confrontational about it is not the way.... maybe I can knock on their door, thank them, and ask to talk about my impressions of it? Maybe I could find some DVD or reading material to leave for them (or for other people in the building, since I'm sure they've all been offered copies of this DVD). Their visit to our door was out of the blue, but that doesn't mean I should just ignore the opportunity it may have given me. Any advice?

Comments

[wayman.livejournal.com]

I'd expect that, in the eyes of that family, your position as a card-carrying scientist (and plaque-carrying topologist) automatically make any reponse you can give "confrontational", no matter how softly it's done.

What a bizarre situation.

[q10.livejournal.com]

any attempt at direct conversation is likely to go badly, since it ends up meaning something that's too much like a personal argument. if you can find a good pro-science DVD to give them (preferably one that's sensitive to or supportive of personal faith), that might work better.

[nutmegger.livejournal.com]

almost certainly, your best response is to do nothing. Any other response invites conflict and escalation. You will certainly not persuade him that he is incorrect. Likewise, he will not persuade you. Therefore, the only way this is likely to go is badly.

I've been getting "Jews for Jesus" literature and have been fantacizing about creating a "Christians for Allah" group in retaliation. But so far it has been mostly a wish.

[carnap.livejournal.com]

I agree with those who say you shouldn't do anything in response. Any serious response to this kind of thing is going to involve trying to convince them that their deeply held religious beliefs are mistaken. I don't think trying to convert them away from evangelical Protestantism is likely to be successful or go anywhere useful. Nor do I don't think a non-Christian's [1] attempt to convince them to adopt a different theological position (evolution is God's handiwork?) within the framework of evangelical Protestantism is likely to see any success. Arguing with them sounds like a recipie for pointless conflict.

[1] I don't know about your personal beliefs, but even if you're a Christian they almost certainly won't regard you as one.

[metasilk.livejournal.com]

I might send them a note: "Thank you, that was educational. It's interesting how we try to adapt ways of thinking about some things into other lines of inquiry. Take care, J-----. "

I agree that it would not be helpful to discuss creationism and evolution (either as conflicting or not). What might be helpful when the kids are or older, or with the mother, is discussing the different ways people approach truth, the scientific approach to truth (and its limitations), and the faith approach (and its limitations). The hardest bit is seeing that neither approach can answer satisfactorily all questions about all subjects, but that both provide ways to explore. (And they are neither, as far as I can tell, incompatible nor free from overlap.)

This of course requires being comfortable with uncertainty, and again with difference, as well as a certain openness to reason. Not to mention a very solid grounding in and acceptance that at some point, we do rely on what other people say (researchers, historians, yadda yadda...)

Well, I gotta get back to work. Miss ya, treasure-boy!

[tapas.livejournal.com]

I agree with other commenters that any actual discussion would likely be interpreted as confrontational and would, therefore, likely be unproductive at best and possibly quite unpleasant. I'd go for retaliation in kind and try to find a DVD that's fun and entertaining but subtly introduces ideas or facts that contradict Hovind's position without being directly about evolution. Maybe a documentary on dinosaurs?

[andele.livejournal.com]

I'm mean-spirited enough to be tempted to visit them with a Bible, turn to the Ten Commandments, and point out that it is a violation of God's law to make a DVD, and see what they have to say about it. But I admit that, really, no good can come of doing so.

("Thou shalt make no manner of likeness of any thing that is in the heavens...or on the earth...or in the waters.")

[gallusgallus.livejournal.com]

...not just untrue, but unscientific.

What does that mean?

Does it imply that the literal interpretation of the bible is both true and "scientific"? What would that mean, exactly?

Perhaps Hovind believes that one MUST assume the existence of a truthful God as an additional philosophical axiom underpinning all science (along with more widely-accepted axioms such as the existence of the universe itself). And perhaps, given this necessary axiom, he also believes there exists empirical evidence that the bible is the Word of God, therefore literally true. I'm just guessing here; I haven't seen the DVD.

We're not Creationists, so we don't require these assumptions to keep Science coherent and self-consistent. (Personally, I believe the second statement is intrinsically contradictory.) Hence, our use of the word "unscientific" has an entirely different meaning from his. I wonder if Hovind even realizes that he's not speaking the same language as us.

BTW, does Hovind believe pi=3?

[ruthling.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this on my way to work yesterday and didn't respond then. It's probably a lot easier on you to not say anything because chances are there's nothing you can do. Unless you're feeling very brave and charismatic, in which case opening a dialogue with the family about how you can't believe everything you see on Tv might be fun. Or you could have them sent, in the kid's name, a science magazine for his age group. I wonder if the school they go to (if, in fact, they aren't homeschooled) knows about these beliefs and how they are handling it.

[jaipur.livejournal.com]

Wow, only to you... :) Y'know, I think you bumping into them and chatting would work. I would go for the "Where did you get this, and why did you give me this?" approach--they may be part of a group where they have to hand out 1 a week and it was your week (in which case you say "Ah!" and the conversation is over), or they may have thought you looked wacky enough to look at it without getting mad at them, or they may have singled you out as a "scientist" and thought you should see it; or they may actually want your response to it.

You could always ask, "I watched this; What did YOU think of it when YOU watched it?" This allows them to hem and haw, rather than assuming they buy it hook, line, and sinker, plus it shows some respect for them as people. If your agenda is to find out about THEM and where they are, rather than push your views on them, then you've avoided the confrontational trap.

But I'm a sucker for that sort of thing. ;)

[alors-indikaze.livejournal.com]

I think I disagree with the statement that ignoring them is the best way to go and anything else will lead to trouble. Gentle questions, "What do you think of 'x'" might work, and if you keep it informal you should be okay. If they seem completely incontrovertible or uninterested, you can make small-talk and leave, but otherwise, who knows? You might be able to make them think a little bit, and a little is better than not at all. Fostering a friendly discussion and setting a good example might make a difference.

[zorblak.livejournal.com]

I, of course, think you should call Child Services and have those children taken away from the parent, but that might be just a bit extreme. More realistically, I don't see any reason not to engage in dialogue with them. The worst that can happen is that you don't get through to them, but you won't get through to them if you don't even try, and you might end up saving a child.

Hmm...

[(Anonymous)]

So far, the vast majority appears to find that almost any response would be confrontational. But no one seems to have considered what it means that the family did this in the first place. Aren't THEY being confrontational? (Not that I am suggesting a confrontation should be engaged in), but it looks a little different to me when you consider who was the active party. It almost seems like a sly dump job... I also note that many of the arguments applied to what Jim could do actually apply to what the family did in fact do...

Pseudo-philosophically,
Ellen

PS: Pardon my incoherence, I've had about 8 hours of sleep to cover the last two days. Yes, it's my fault; and yes, it was worth it, and I'm going to bed soon (after which I hope to be at least marginally less incoherent)

[chlomar.livejournal.com]

I don't know you, but I just came across this and thought that I'd mention that "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for God. Christians who speak Arabic (of which there are many) refer to God as "Allah" when they're speaking Arabic, just like Muslims do. Just fyi.